Sunday, February 18, 2007

Anger and disgust

As written at 4.30am Sunday morning after just having arrived home:

I am so disgusted, by men’s behaviour. By the arrogance. The chauvinism. The disrespect that men have for women in this city. Did any of you imagine that perhaps, despite the way your pampering mothers brought you up, women have feelings that can be offended. Your demands to us make us feel like slaves. Your disgusting suggestions make us feel like we have displayed ourselves like whores. Your overpowering physical strength scare us into submission. Yes, we are submissive, as the idea of being hit causes fear in us. Fear generated by your masculinity is not a thing to be proud of, but rather to be ashamed of.

When you ride 5cm off the tail of my car, and then pass me by millimetres expect anger. But then I am a female. I should simply abide. So when I flash my lights and hoot in anger at you for endangering MY life, you stop. You try to reverse. I reverse. So you get out of your car. Potentially with a gun. Because that is the nature of this country that men allow themselves to be apathetic or play straight in to. And I sit behind my wheel waiting. Should I drive forward, I will land a punch for being a cheeky fucking bitch. If I reverse, I am a coward, who picked a fight but couldn’t maintain. Of course I back down and reverse. An idiot with something to prove, I am not.

But let us back track to where I had been. But half an hour before I had been in a bar where one man asked were my friend and I not going to play spin the bottle with him and his mate. (The mate of his who had told me several times by now that he very much dislikes my brother). Don’t worry. No kissing. Only losing clothes. Very seriously Very much not leaving until they received an answer. Very much disgusting me and my friend. UNTIL…fcking (name deleted) shows his face. A man I detest with every fibre of my being.

Yes, a hot schleb man he is. I recall sitting with him in 2004 drinking whiskey while he was getting divorced & needing a companion. I recall him in 2005 wearing a PURPLE suit and insulting me in front of many people, and my darling friend tearing him to pieces. Months later he approached me in that bar and asked my forgiveness. Over much time and many apologies listened to while just trying to enjoy my night out, I accepted. I eventually even decided to humour him with the date he had been begging me for. He stood me up.

So there I saw him tonight. And he claimed in front of all that he had never met me. He never knew me. But had we ever had sex. He proceeded to hit on my darling friend. The fcking audacity. He disgusts me.

Or how about the man I bumped into between the engagement party and Melville. The man I had once ended up going home with for some more drinks. And yes, I was naïve enough to say I was going back to their place ONLY for more drinks. We did end up naked, that year ago. He called for his friend to look at my breasts. Obviously, if I’d ended up naked with him so randomly I was slapper enough to show his mate my naked self. He was unimpressed that I refused. He tried to strangle me as some form of kink. He smacked me. I had decided to not show that this random man had hurt me, had affected me. But there he now was, a year later talking to me about HIV in serious terms.

How do you in one night treat me so disrespectfully and so poorly and like I am a whore. And now a year later you try to engage in intellectual conversation, because it will be of benefit to you. Because I hold information that will aid your life, not because you have an ounce of respect for me working my butt and mind off to have gained that information, and to have reached my level of career or humanity.

I am tired of this ridiculous notion, as well as me deserving an ounce less of respect because as a woman I decided on my terms when, where, with who, and how I can have sex. And perhaps once it was with you, no emotions attached. Just fun satisfying sex. But that is NOT how a generalised woman should act, and so you can look at me from now on with a stare that hurts, or pass comments publicly that smack me. Bad choice of mine I guess, if you couldn’t cope with it. Those times when it was a choice of mine.

There are men that have taken advantage of a fast asleep me, often when I didn't realise they had rolled onto the same side of the bed/couch, or in the same room, or even in the same fcking house, and then still can face me so easily the next morning, the next month, the next year. You can face my brother, or my father. You can even fcking tell me how hot you find my mother. You fcking disgusting man, who is so respected in your career of your choice. Making money. Making a life. Making a success. Even though you hurt me so badly. But who am I in the global male world.

Or that when you know I am attracted to you even though I know I should not be, you tell me about the women you want to or have recently fucked. Or you show your mate sexual photos on your phone of some chick of yours. Yes, you turn your phone away from me, trying to be subtle. With me standing there, at a loss of how to react. At a loss for believing you actually did that. Bust by your mate and his comment of “nice rack. Is that the chick in the cape?”. And then blaming him for it. Rather than blaming yourself for not respecting ME!

Men, you disgust me. I have every right to say this. You despise me when I am too intelligent. Your actions teach women to not talk too much, to not talk to your gender too much, to not show intelligence, to not show stupidity unless I peroxide my hair.

I guess us women are to blame too, as we allow this. We put up with your ways and forgive you time and again. Often we do not even mention anything. We accept “that’s just men”, like our mothers told us. We give you so much. And you take.

And do not dare to disagree with me on this one. I have just had one night where I have watched one mate dating a man who will fuck around with every chick but her. Where men will think that my other beautiful friend’s smile will mean she will open her naked legs to them. They take her number and an early-morning hour later ask if they can come visit cause they are passing through her area. Where I will be forced to back down to your insulting disgusting arrogant ways whether they are on the road or at a bar counter (but what kinda girl can be found at a bar counter!!!!). You all please take a look at the way you treat us. And decide why you want one of us lying next to you. Before you dare again sms us. Or ask us again to love you.

I am hurt by your gender. If you are not spineless. You are pathetically arrogant.

90 comments:

Triggermap said...

Champs, wow. I'm a guy and i know of guys who treat girls like that, but it still flabogasts (sp.) me that people can treat people like that. I don't want to sound glib, but you should really consider changing social circles, because dudes like that hang out with other dudes like that and while you constantly expose yourself to that, its kind of like a vicious circle meeting one crap dude after another. And from reading your posts, I think you deserve way better :)

kabintsimbi said...

Shit Champs...you're totally what is needed to bring about a new form of feminism!

Sorry for all your feelings, like triggermap says, get out of the circle because from reading your blogs, you do deserve to feel better! Why be around men who are like that...god it makes me sick just reading the post!

Anyway, what type of man wears a purple suit? Maybe he's gay & is taking it (he may not be able to deal with such things, esp by the sound of him) out on women, who he believes are the weaker sex. Easy targets you know! Otherwise he's just some wanker with a fucking carrot up his own arse, not knowing what's really good for him!

I say good riddance to the lot of them!

Phlippy said...

Champers, as I man I find it difficult to comment as I am so ashamed as to how you have been treated. There are just some men that you don't want to know. Men who have no backbone, or social graces, as Trigger and Kabs have mentioned before me.

I am truly sorry these men found their way into your life.

Jam said...

Champs - Thanks for summarising our experiences like this. I was rather grumpy all Sunday too, thanks to my Saturday night. I feel like joining a nunnery after reading this.
xx

Jam said...

Come on guys, what do you have to say for yourselves?

noodle said...

What IS it with men? Why is that sort of behaviour acceptable? Why do women allow it? Is it a south african thing? Is that how primitive our society is?

Where are the french men when you need them…

Champagne Heathen said...

Trigger - thanks very much for your comment, and the sweet words. The thing is that my Sat night landed me in various places and in various social circles across Jo'burg, and in each place I found examples of disrespect, and where I (and a friend) was hurt.

And thanks! After years of accepting shite & accepting maybe it was something a hardheaded woman should just live with & even deserved, I learnt that I do deserve the gorgeous men who do exist and who treat me like the most incredible woman to have entered their lives. I really wish though that I did not have to regularly come across the others.

Kabs - I do think this town needs a shake up. That it is battling with conservative ideas/ norms meeting new liberal ways of living & perceiving life & gender.

Thanks for your kind words! And yes, good riddance to those men who cannot respect. I just wish all women would not allow this.

Phlippy - thanks babe!! And so far, you've definitely treated me like every woman hopes to be treated by men.

Jamaloni - hugs and smooches. You did look beautiful on Sat night! And deserved the awe of the sweet men around. Not the many chancers. No nunneries!!! (They're worse according to that Magdalene Sister movie!) We'll figure it out eventually.

Noodle - I think to one extent it is because us women allow it. We allow ourselves to be talked to & touched disgracefully when out. To listen to men talk about other women terribly. Other men also need to help us to not allow the disrespectful men to keep acting in a way that is so socially unacceptable & yet is accepted by our society.

Good luck to us!

(One frenchman Jo'burg bound on an aeroplane as we speak!!!! :) Yeah Yeah Yeah!! )

lordwiggly said...

Those guys make me sick. I have met so many women that have been beaten, raped, cheated on. How does someone pick themselves up after that and face a relationship again? Some of these women have been so hurt that they simply can't let another man in. Its like they have been flawed by the horrific memories. And when the chivalric knight steps in he often gets trodden on and dumped because of the past. Yes I despise these men, these "life killers", who often get off scott free and have no remorse for their actions.

Champers et al there are some nice guys out there. Possibly women are looking so hard for the good in men that they keep entertaining the scum.

Revolving Credit said...

I've told you this before - don't hangout with these people!!!

Do they like Champs? probably not.
Who they do like is the fun girl at the bar who likes a good drink and seemd to be up for a bit of fun. However, that is not the whole person, just a social side.

Unfortunately, these shallow types appear to have no interest in getting to know the true you, but would rather wallow in the superficial.

It is unfortunate that this is a general late night bar norm. If these guys had any more substance, they'd be out discovering, enchanting some lovely lass as opposed to trying to convince women to play spin the bottle.

Like really, who the hell does that after the age of 20???

They need to grow-up and you need to move on!!

Now, I do not want to here this specific complaint from you again if it involves the same people and venues.

Choose to be different and move on!

Jam said...

Feels like this may take forever to work out. And thanks for the compliment.

Guenness Pig said...

Sounds like you had a hectic weekend. Remember, just because they are shits does not mean you should change though. Just maybe be weary of them in purple suits :-)

Seriously, reading this really pissed me off. You guys deserve so much better.

Jam said...

I will just add another thing here, post a Guiness Pig comment, that not all men are shits. But Lord Wiggly is right - unfortunately many women get really hurt and put off by guys who don't respect woman. And that's really tough to get over.

ChewTheCud said...

dude. really. weak. why for champers hang out in weird bar with lame guys? those guys are so not cool! its ok to tell them to fuck the hell off champers, thats the only kind of signal they'll understand ;)

fly said...

hmmmm...gender bashing...be careful because its closer to racism than you know...

Champs, im sorry these things have happened to you, but I wont apologise for being a man...i'm a good person and I wouldnt dream of doing any of those things to you, nor would any of my male friends....

To blame the entire gender on some unfortunate circumstances is very unfair... its unfair as me to say all women are "bitches" because my heart was ripped out last year by and incredibly nasty and souless girl...I have lost all respect for her as a person because of this but i'm not going to lose respect for women in general...

Blame the person but not the gender...

There are some very special ppl out there, the trick is to find them, seek them out and and most importantly stay with them....that goes for friends, partners whatever, surround yourself with ppl you can trust and generally bad things wont happen ;o)

Her Infinite Cuteness said...

The tragedy is the are too many of these men out there and most women have stories like these...
Champers im sorry you experienced this.

Champagne Heathen said...

Wiggly Lord - some of these men are fun & charming, and so yes, we do get sucked in. Plus, if other women are like me, I was taught by the women in my life to give every man a chance. To be sweet cause they are shy or easily hurt. It is eventually when my head hurts from all the banging against brick walls that a friend intervenes.

And after years of lots of suppressed anger, yes, I realised I did not deserve certain treatment & that I can find wonderful men out there. Like I said in another comment tho - I still have to come across men that remind me of my haunting past.

Rev - I am learning. I am just slow with emotional/romantic intelligence it seems. I listen to my wise friends more. I am trying. And I do not try to hang out with these men, but they can be found everywhere.

I might have to mail you sometimes & warn you not to read some posts! I might have realised some things, but it does not mean i have accepted them yet. Only in time.

Guinnie - Thank you!! And yes, it is always the dilemma - for me to change, or ask them to change, or rather, just to get myself out of the situation!

Jamaloni - Pleasure. Anytime. And yes, we get hurt, but eventually I decided I would not allow the weak disgusting men beat me into not getting the most out of what can be a wonderful loving life.

Chews - such men can be found everywhere. From bars, to parties, to workplaces, to family & friend gatherings. My stories & my friends' stories could shock you of where these men crawl out of & show their true selves.

One thing, when a woman does tell a man to "fck off" it has to be when she is feeling very strong, cause the kind of men you have to say that too are not the type to back down. They come back harder & with a lot worse, and you have to show that their reactions do not hurt, cause then they get what they want.

And, trust me, I swore at that purple-suited man A LOT on Sat night. As I always have done. Jam had to pull me out of there before I really lost my head.

ChewTheCud said...

sorry for the pain my gender has caused you babe ;)

Champagne Heathen said...

Fly - what I am trying to say here is that countless monthly examples of being disrespected in so many ways by so many men does teach a woman to generalise more than is "fair". But then it is not fair for a woman to be treated the way she is cause she has breasts/ blonde straight hair/ is physically more vulnerable, tries to keep her strong character even when men who despise this try to beat her down.

I am not talking about relationships here - that is between 2 people.

There is a disrespect of some men towards far too many women in our general society. Women need to stop putting up with this shite, but that is so much easier said than done as when we fight back we get hurt (physically/ emotionally/ verbally) - I have been in many screaming matches to the point of things turning physical when I have witnessed a guy being disrespectful to a woman. I get beaten down when I fight back. I have been violated for being myself. Men also need to not allow their friends/ family/ other men to behave like this. Although, I don't think you all are realising how often & when it happens. It is being kept on the sly often.

This disrespectful behaviour needs to become completely unacceptable in our society, should we be claiming we are liberal & equal.

Guenness Piggly said...

Lord I like your decription "life killers". Describes it to the T. Having gone through that a while back, and dare I say, having done something similar to someone.

These things take time, but they can be overcome. The scary thing is when one sees oneself falling into potentially the same situation. Does one stop or take the risk?

Champagne Heathen said...

Thanks Cuteness! And yes, many women have stories they never ever tell. And many women accept it as their fault or that it is to be expected. I decided sometime back that I would start being open to what has happened in my life, to make other women deal with their experiences and to make men more aware of what is going on being the scenes. I am just not ready to be open enough about it by telling all on my blog yet.

Thanks Chews! It means a lot.

Jam said...

It's all about space and perspective. Women who are aware will eventually deal with their issues around men...but it takes time and the truth is they will tread on those who try to help before they are ready to step out into the world again.

Her Infinite Cuteness said...

Well Champers more women need to follow your example. Your strength is inspiring.

Champagne Heathen said...

Guinnie - I think it is as Jam just commented - to take your space and time and realise your perspective. Things just become slower, so to realise what the risk involves.

Women don't want to be saved, we do want to be respected & loved though - for what makes us strong & what makes us weak.

Cuteness - this strength can also being exhausting though. I might be a hooligan with an overbounding desire for fun & exploration & being tested, but also, just being loved & quietness & comfort is sometimes all I want - which is why puppies & incredible friends help!

Her Infinite Cuteness said...

Couldnt have said it better myself...

Peas on Toast said...

Hello my sweet thing.

OK, I sense anger - a lot of it, that much is obvious. ;)

Men can be pigs, this I cannot deny. They don't think wit their heads, only their nethers. Always.
I could say not all men are like this, they are. But they also want boundaries. So for insatnce when someone trangresses these, a bit of screaming and shouting or taking the high road of 'I will never show you my breasts' or even pretending you don't know him as much as he doesn't know you ("Barry? Nice to meet you. I haven't seen you around before, where you from?") tends to put them in their place.

In the meantime, embrace the anger: it's better than feeling sad for their species. :)

Peaches said...

Well said Champs.

Disgusting man, sounds, well....plain disgusting!

Guinness "zen" Pork said...

One can only save oneself IMHO. Sure friends and family can support you, and sometimes support comes in the form of space, that is the hardest.

Like quitting anything, one can only quit if ONE really wants to. That said, I am going for a smoke ;-)

"Whatsoever you are, accept it so totally that nothing is left to be achieved" - Osho

fly said...

Champs I know where you are coming from and like I said, im sorry that these things have happened to you...

Some guys are just dicks tho...actually a lot of guys are dicks (why do you think I left Benoni ???)

Dont think that its only women that get harrased by arseholes....or driven off the road, or threatened because they wear glasses or just looking in the wrong general direction....or my personal fav, kissing a girl that came onto you, only for her bf to be standing behind you waiting to beat the crap into you...

I understand your concern for the mens lack of respect for women....but altho I do feel women tend to get a bad deal, lack of respect is across the board unfortunately...

My only suggestion is stay away from places that may have a lot of arseholes frequenting....If I can do it, you can ;o)

Jam said...

"Know the whole world is nothing when it is compared to knowing your own inner mystery of life." - Osho

# 302 said...

a special nudge and a wink

Champagne Heathen said...

Cuteness - thanks!

Peas - an EARLY morning rant, a coupla glasses of wine in me & encounters with a few idiots....ahh, brings out all that is loving in me ;)

I like your idea on boundaries. Except some of these men keep pushing & pushing & pushing. I also feel horrible when I have to be rude to some man, especially through ignoring. There are a handful of men in this town who we both do the "skirt the person & the issue & any memory of that guy being an absolute pig to me once/ twice etc". I have learnt it is imperative, but I still hate that it had to get to that.

Peaches - Thanks! And yes, some men are just plain disgusting & will never see the need to change.

Guinnie - I agree completely. And my good friends know full well that I only hear them when I am ready to, and then they are always still just waiting, to support me incredibly.

Fly - but this is a post about disrespect that is based on gender relations. Of course there is disrespect in different forms, but I am not looking at those. I choose my fights, and fighting against this gender-based disrespect is one of my fights in life.

And that is what angers me even more, that acceptance & decision to change my life to avoid them, rather than demanding those people change their ways. That they could change to suit what society claims is the new way of the world. There are def. certain places that can be avoided for running into such people, but these types of men are not located solely to specific areas. They can be found in every setting, at every hour.

Champagne Heathen said...

Jam - :)

Numero - thanks babe! :)

Guenness Porc said...

Jam that is so true, but it is so much easier to know the world than oneself.

Jam said...

It's not easy. Taking space.

Daedalus said...

Elooooooooo,
Push out ya chest and I might comment :P

- sheeeeet!!! I'd better keep clear of angry Shampooooo.
Hope you feel wee bit better, and no, I will not defend men in this regard.

Jam said...

Daedalus - you once warned me of something I should have listened to so good on you for this opinion...

Daedalus said...

Jam-Bun,
I have always had the opinion that men are dogs... I am a man myself after all - I do not suffer from it though, but try to learn to be a better person each day. I tend to learn from the mistakes of others, as I simply do not have enough time to make them all myself.

Champagne Heathen said...

Guinnie - yeah, I'm just sticking to the world for now.

Jams - that's why you have to lean just a little more on your friends during that bit.

Daeds - Eeeeellllloooooo! Yeah, angry Shampoo tends to try to punch alot. Unfortunately I am too short & have too tiny fists to do damage.

Learning from mistakes is fine. But some people just don't see them as 'mistakes'.

GoDsGiMp said...

You getting it all wrong by the way.

These are not men. So stop referring to them as such.

Insane Insomniac said...

You need to change the group of men you associate with.

Thegodowner said...

It bothers me that you would see me through eyes blurred by comtempt from previous experiences.
I can't say anything to change how you feel, except that not every man is 'just a man'... and I can only hope that someone comes along who can prove that to you.

ChewTheCud said...

yeah! anyone wearing a purple suit deserves to get the shit kicked outta him.

Daedalus said...

Shampoooooooo,
Arrogance is a mistake no matter what. How old are these boys?

Champagne Heathen said...

Godsgimp - excellent point!

Insanity - I have a very large, very diverse friendship group. Rathe, I have to stop giving the idiots out there the time of day.

Thegodowner - I do my best to not be a bitter person. I have worked hard to not be deeply affected by negative past experiences. I know I am still learning.

And no, it is not a trait inherent in men, so it cannot exist at all. I do believe though that it is quietly being able to continue to exist.

I have had men show me how women can be treated. I've written a follow up post on how I know (soberly) think about it, but I want to leave this post at the top for a little longer.

Chews - :)

Daeds - on Sat night? One guy was in his early twenties. Two guys were def. about 28. One guy must be in his last 30s/ early 40s. They come in all ages.

Daedalus said...

Shamoooooo,
Well, they certainly still have a lot to learn. Do not hang out with that crowd pops, you are way to nice for that.

Jam said...

So why do all you guys have this notion that men who treat women baddly hang about in packs? It takes all types, from all over the place.

fly said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Daedalus said...

Packs? Erm...
There are good guys out there ... you just need to find 'em. Ditto for girls.
Problem is that the "cool" guys or girls are not always the nice ones ;) It is normally people with a low self-esteem that attack others in one way or another in an attempt to feel better about themselves and/or point of view.

Let's not forget that we get this same treatment from the female side of the world - it is not 100% male not female. It is more about respect for others.

Jam said...

Too true. This I know. It just seems that since men are always the ones who pick up women, we're subjected to more shit.

Daedalus said...

women = more abuse, and men on the flip side - more rejection

Jam said...

I'm always nice.

Guenness Pig said...

So how about the men that get "picked" up by women ;-)

I second that Jam, but that is just MHO.

Champagne Heathen said...

I think the focus is here is not on tit-for-tat behaviour in our daily interactions with men and women.

Rather, it is that I believe our society currently allows a certain type of man, who can be found in all sectors & suburbs & themes of life, to treat women in a disrespectful way.

The subject is hushed away rather than being spoken about. Unless the woman is suffering physical or continual emotional abuse then she is asked by our society to rather "let it ago" and try not to encouter that type of man again.

This is not possible if our broader society allows this type of man disrespectful/ disgusting behaviour, that does not blatantly cross over into being abusive.

As a woman I am asking that this subject start to be spoken about and that those men who are the type we love and appreciate would assist us with this battle, so rid our society of an unhealthy attitude based on gender differences.

Jam said...

I never pick up men....

fly said...

And how would you tackle it Champs ???

Jam said...

And yes Champs - I do get what you're saying here.

boldly benny said...

Champers, when I read your blog I had such a terrible pain in my heart. While I don't know you, I can't bear the thought of a fellow chica being hurt so badly I think my empathy also came from enduring terrible things and also seeing my sisters go through terrible situations.
I've always set very high standards when it comes to men but this doesn't mean I haven't been hurt but I've learnt from my mistakes and the mistakes of others and I think you are so right when it comes to us laying boundaries. This in no way excuses any of the vile behaviour you've encountered but you're right in that we can take control and as soon as we say - that's not okay. There'll start being an end to this. A while ago I met this guy at a bar and I stupidly gave him my number - who knew wanting to get to know someone meant that I was opening myself up to the most obsessive, vulgar phone calls I've ever received in my life. The final straw when I eventually uttered the words "I have an idea, why don't you do and fuck your hand" was when he phoned me and told me that he was coming around at 1.30am when I told him that it wasn't a good idea, he told me that I should get over myself and I should be so lucky. The next day he sobered up and tried to reconcile the situation, I stuck to my guns and told him to fuck off. He still tried to phone me obsessively and finally got the hint when I kept cancelling his number. I felt so violated and all I'd done was give him my number!
If a guy grabs your ass - that's NOT okay. If a guy makes any lewid comment - that's NOT okay. If a guy calls you bitch, slut, whore, jintu - anything like that in a jest, anger or any situation - THAT'S NOT OKAY!

Champagne Heathen said...

Fly - not sure if your comment followed my last comment or was during my moment of quietness & just reading.

I tackle it by voicing my opinion & by allowing people to know about situations, from those that have been horrifying to the more simple and day-to-day, that have hurt me & are not easy to speak about. Sometimes they are not easy to speak about because people tell me I am over-reacting or because I worry people will tell me I brought it on myself.

I fight back against men who treat women badly. I believe I try to be polite & respectful to men as often as possible. My boundaries on behaviour acceptance are perhaps too wide as a result, and so I bear the brunt of what other women are rude to straight off.

Jam - I know you do.

Benny - thanks for sharing that example. And EXACTLY. So simple yet so so insulting & degrading. A woman is left after such a situation asking how she brought it on to her, and how she can not have the same thing happen...but never giving your number to a man?? then how will you meet the good guys.

And yes, many men that push the boundaris of respect loving jumping back to the lying explanation that it is the girl over-reacting or misreading. "It is the girl's fault".

And I think I am going to say exactly that..."that's not ok" the whenever I again feel disrespected. As simple & blunt, and yet polite as that!

Guinness Hog said...

Jam that was not directed at you :-)

Champs, changing scociety is one big challenge you taking on. Unfortunatly as nice as it would be, I doubt that there will be a significant change in our lifetime. You know how difficult it is to change people minds on AIDS and that has a direct mortal impact on their own lives.

It seems that there is not enough respect and understanding in the world (across the spectrum of life). Respect is a two way street, a classic catch-22.

We can only work on our selves and in the words of Bono "don't let the bastards drag you down"

Daedalus said...

Shampooooo... bite me.
My bad ... I changed topic

ChewTheCud said...

champers - you still got that email? go read the jokes. we all want ya to be happy :)

Jam said...

GP - I didn't think it was.

boldly benny said...

Guiness Hog it's because of the attitude that it's too much to change societal attitudes that nothing changes. If we all take a stand like Champers and tell guys like the few that she has described in her post that it's not okay - something is going to change. Guys and girls can take a stand - don't be afraid, if you guys really don't want to be grouped as these assholes that she has described then SAY SOMETHING OR DO SOMETHING. Not doing something is just as bad, guys don't snigger when your mate grabs some girl's bum - say something, "Dude that's not really cool." My father goes on biking rallies - the rawest of raw - and a while ago he was at a really big gathering and this girl was getting violated by the guys - they were grabbing her. My father stood up and said something, the guys backed up - why, coz my father has four daughters and he'd never want to see ANY man violate any of his girls. TAKE A STAND, all you have to do is say: That's not okay!

Jam said...

The thing is - how do you ever know what a perfect stranger is going to be like? I know guys who have appeared great on the surface, only to become truly awful at a later stage. And some guys who appear arrogant and insincere at first turn out to be the most wonderful people.

boldly benny said...

Jam, I think you give everyone a chance but remember your boundaries and stick to them. I open myself up to alot of people and take the time to get to know people but when someone crosses a boundary I make it quite clear and if they can't respect my boundary - I give them the boot!

Guinness Pig said...

boldly I never said not to do anything. What I ment was that one can only change oneself.

Don't be a reformer, and don't try to teach others, and don't try to change others. If you change, that's enough of a message. -- OSHO

I would never hang out with guys that pinch girls, and I would also not stand by if I saw someone being a pig. That said, more often than not, interfering when a guy beats his GF is exactly the wrong thing to do.

Champagne Heathen said...

Guinnie - you need to chat to my mom! She has spent years shaking her head, trying to explain to me that I can't change the world.

But I also cannot accept certain things, and so I will not stand back & allow them. I have tried & it is even more detrimental to me. And causes me great regret. If even creating minor awareness, I have to close my eyes & hope.

The small fight can be taken on exactly as Boldly Benny comments just after you.

Daeds - never a worry! That's the point of it all. I just have to guide it.

Chews - I am happy. I just need to ensure long term happiness.

Boldly B - thank you & exactly. I have been violated by a guy & had his friends cheer & praise him fterwards. I would love to know that just one friend told him what he did was wrong, let alone disgusting. I have had a friend been set up for a dating practical joke, and luckily 1 guy involved phoned her & warned her quietly. And thise are extreme examples.

I have listened to men's comments to women, while standing with a group of guys, and wished one guy had spoken up. Or seen how a man mis-fondles a woman, or speaks down to her etc. If he could just be told to his face by someone he respects that "that's not ok".

My brothers know full well to never use in the word 'slut' in a conversation that I am present during. And many of my guy mates know that certain topics or jokes cannot be said in front of me. I do worry though that all this does is close off the topic, rather than gets my point across. But yes, if more people just start saying 'that is not ok' rather than turning a blind eye....

boldly benny said...

Exactly - lead by example! We're on the same page then! I'm not saying you do hang out with people who behave terribly, I'm saying that if guys don't want to be generalised as "all men" then they have to lead by example.

Daedalus said...

Shamppooooooo
Arg ... just be cute ... I like you better that way you grumpy you

Champagne Heathen said...

Jam - that is my worry too, and that is why I try to be as respectful and open to as many people as possible. But as B.Benny says, now boundaries need to be tightened, and a simple "that is not ok" needs to be said when mine have been pushed too far. Should the man not respect that THEN I can feel nothing for being rude & ignoring him.

I guess, we are all learning along the way, and because we all have different boundaries, we need to respectfully show people where each of ours are. It is only the worst of the lot who would push beyond that, and then as godsgimp put it "please do not term those ones as men"...or as women!

Guinnie - luckily though, I get to have a personal public forum where I don't have to push my fight in others' faces (anymore). They chose to learn about my fights. Cause yes, as tough a lesson as it is for me, it is egotistical of me to "teach" people and try to change them. Who's to say I am right...except on this fight, I know from convos & experience how many women are quietly hurting & feeling guilty for what is not their fault and how many more women will be exposed to it.

Champagne Heathen said...

Thanks Daeds! I actually am no longer grumpy. I stopped being grumpy sometime around a picnic yesterday. Today I am just quiet & watching the comments with interest.

It is not easy staying focused on this topic, but it does feel it is healthy. I am reading & replying with fascination. I might need a strong GnT come the end of work (and THAT always makes me smile!)

Anonymous said...

Being a guy, I was a bit annoyed reading this post , basically you just lump us all into oe group and call us asshholes.

So I thought about it and had a good look at my friends and ho they treat girls.

Unfortunate conclusion I came to was the friends that are actually the good looking guys that model and get on tv , they the ones that treat girls badly. The only reason I can think of is because they know a click of the fingers and there is another girl just standing in line. So basically their attitude is they got 'em lined up why give a shit about how they feel.Even my married mates aren't treating their wives right!

Of couse there were exceptions but this was very much the general case.

Then I looked at the normal looking guys that Im friends with. Being closer to thirty quite are now married, and those that aren't treat girls and girlfriends like gold. The only reason I can think of is They realise the true value of being close to someone.

Guys that will take a girl home very week, well they not gonna treat the next like something special, to them you just a number, or a ''remeber that girl from wherever'' Im not sayings its right Im saying its life.

We all put these good lookers on pedestals, the great catch, the celeb from wherever ! Well this is the result.

Champagne Heathen said...

Anon - thank you very much for your comment, your very interesting & relevant perspective on it, and just for thinking about what I was trying to say, rather than pass it off as an angry chick with issues generalising as usual.

It was written at a late drunken hour, & so while I knew it was (a bit) irrational, I decided the rawness of this anger would be better than an intelligent calm post the next day.

I think I agree with most of your reasoning. I think I accepted I am not going to easily change the attitude of promiscuity & all of that. But I think I can try to make a stand for respect. In the many many areas where it can & should be shown.

There can def. be respect when it comes to one nighters, even if you don't recall the woman's name. Just from how you treat them during & after the night. And yes, def. vice versa for the woman too.

DaveRich said...

Hey Champers, sorry to hear such anger and bitterness coming from someone so nice. I honestly don't know what to say that hasn't been said before, but I really feel that I have to say something about this. Even at drunken and debaucherous partys, there are still lines and boundaries that are laid out, we are still part of society. Its all well and good to say "It's not ok" but how many jagerbombs, glasses of cheap cheap wine does it take before all inhibition and sense flies away in haze. So we do make mistakes but do we learn from them, thats the secret I think. Otherwise the consequences are gonna be dire. Nice post, thanks for sharing.

Champagne Heathen said...

Daverich - thanks for your lovely & true comment. We all make mistakes. We all have to make allowances for that. But not too many allowances to the detriment of others. Or even to our own detriment.

I am learning as I go, and you lucky guys all get to be witness to it!

And I think I won Fri's bet...as I was not in Melville...although I did have a drink afte work. Who won then??

# 302 said...

so tender comrade, are you feeling better? lotsa intellectualising here - sometimes, you need a gentle nudge and for people to just agree with you, i think you got that x75...and counting.

Champagne Heathen said...

Thanks for checking in Numero. I'm good. Just tired. And keen for a GnT or a yoga session. And yes, it is good to have such support and such a response to publicly making known pain I felt.

Phlippy said...

Hey Champers - sorry I have been out of the loop all day. Am rested now - yay :-)

OK, I actually tend to agree with Anonymous. To a large degree men who find it far easier to "get" women, respect and revere them less. They do not appreciate what they have. It is a sad state of affairs. However, this is not a "boxed case" as not all good looking guys behave that way. Some are chivalrous, were brought up well, and have a great appreciation for women and who they are. I don't know what category of good looking these people fell into though. I just thought Anonymous' comment was insightful.

The way that I treat women is simply based on what I saw hurt my mother, and what made my mother happy in my parents relationship. This in itself is something to take a away, realising that not many men pay attention to there surroundings. Psychologically we cannot understand what it is that changes one man's viewpoint and behaviour to anothers. In essence you can neber look at a man and tell what you're going to et. You can listen from afar, but when 'shoved' into close quarters without being able to have a say in the matter, is a different story.

I know that you are also talking about men approaching and their attitudes [incl driving incident]. A man that picks on a woman has a "small penis" in essence. His level of self worth is so low that he needs to prove himself by "beating" someone smaller than himself. Belittlement, anger, rage, disrespect and childishness are all signs of huge weakness and low self worth and self-esteem. These men of which you speak chose you because you are a victim to them, because you are small, because you are "apparently" weaker than them. This gives them power.

As everyone has siad, these are the wrong types of people to be hanging out with. The difficult part is, "How do you change that?"

Robert@iScatterlings.com said...

Here is a virtual hug from me.

*hug and hold until trembling stops*

Here is some more attention

*hands Champs the Kleenex and triple Vodka straight*

Here is some virtual running the fuck away from Champs

*RUNAWAY, RUNAWAY, RUNAWAY*

Here is some virtual making up

*you are still an adorable woman and I only know your brain and virtual personality. Your social antics are harmless, full of humour and not intended to hurt anyone. Even when you get ratarsed, blind drooling dronk and dance on tables. You know how to let go and maximise the fun of being able to enjoy your life. Most S Africam men do not. I was one. Not as bad as what you have experienced.You are to be treasured for who you are. Not whjat yopu look like. Or how you drive. I do not know what you look like. But I do know that I could love you madly forever if I did ever get to see you and know you.*

More later

Champagne Heathen said...

Phlippy - lovely comment, and yes, how do I go about staying away from the men that hurt me for no reason but to give themselves a quick power high?!

I guess my one answer is to ask for them to change. As some have argued, this is possibly far too monumental, and I'll continue to hurt myself while on a Don Quixote-type rampage.

So then how do I avoid the man that can be found everywhere?

It is complex, hardly an easy issue, and one that I would like awareness on. I do not want it to be abused to bash males about silly gripes. I want awareness made around actions/ comments/ acceptance of norms that hurt women. We must not be allowed to be the punching bags to men's insecurities, no matter how valid or invalid these insecurities are.

Champagne Heathen said...

Ah Robs. I've been wondering where you've been today. You've made me smile all sweet & melancholy-like.

Thank you as always you darling man.

I am not sure what else to say to give your comment the credit it deserves. I'll just have to print, frame & put it on my wall!

Smooches

DaveRich said...

You said that you were "...going home to your couch", I said "whateva". You wanted to have a bet. I said sure. So you lost cause you had a glass of wine. Hah, Mojito's on you...

Kevin Cadman said...

Hey :)

I'm sorry to hear about your experiences with this ass-tent.

It's no use getting worked up about it; there will always be asshole guys and asshole girls... we have the choice whether or not to associate with them.

Rather, treat HIM like the pile of shit that he is; or better yet, just don't talk to him at all.

It's unfair to generalise though (I know it really does help with the anger though!)... we're not all like that prick!

I'm in JHB next week... you better be at our lil' mini blogger meet! :)

Champagne Heathen said...

DaveRich - 1 glass of wine, and two very very strong GnTs...so one mojito for you it will have to be! Damn! The GnTs were worth it though!

Kevin - Unfortunately I was not talking about one random guy, and one random incident. This is not a 'some man slated & gave me bat' rant. When I have those, I go OTT with ranting cause it becomes more of a joke. This post was written from a place of hurt and anger of being mistreated & disrespected by so many men of so many types who can be found in so many places.

To read into it that I am saying this about the entire male gender is to simplify my point, and in turn to generalise a woman's argument into "male bashing". (Hmmm...I just realised this point actually - needed to point this out to a few other guys that commented).

See you next week!

double R said...

Wowee - Champers deary I can only concur with the descent people that have provided positive feedback..

My only solution would be to assocaite will men that are far more worthwhile...

I will be honest, apologising etc will not solve the problem.

Gentlemen it is important to not allow this to happen if you are aware of it...

Champagne Heathen said...

Double R - thanks hun! And I now do my best to only hang out with top class lovely people!

spoon said...

I too have been apalled...it's also not necessarily the one's you think that will do this...they don't walk around with signs on their foreheads. There's a lot of pressure to be an instant and excellent judge of character for both genders!

Champagne Heathen said...

Spoon - yes, I have been amazed at who can turn around & disrespect women so so easily & badly.

Also, when judging characters, we often want to be wrong. I don't want to be immediately looking for the negative side of someone, but want to believe & be proved that the person is good. Sometimes though, I just have to accept that person is bad and/or not good for me in particular.

Anonymous said...

Being without internet at the time, I didn't get to read this post. Powerful and scary - that refers to both the post, and yourself, Champers.

And it's a compliment.

Koeksuster

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